"People still think they used a dummy in that scene," says MacKay, now 67. Submissions should be for the purpose of informing or initiating a discussion, not just to entertain readers. The film's ambiguous setting and regular references to what an awful place it is are significant to its story, as it's effectively used to conjure the image of purgatory. Seeing the poor guy sit in the interrogation room with the sheet around his shoulders and the knife dildo still on him, you realize how big it is and how much terrible damage something like that would do. Does Counterspell prevent from any further spells being cast on a given turn? Putting a lot of Sloth into it: Sloth inse7en, New Escapist Video! John further explains how Tracy begged for her life and the life of the child inside her then realizes that Mills didn't even know she was pregnant. The tubes are an IV line carrying nutrients, fluids, and whatever drugs John Doe was using to keep the victim alive and placid for the year he was trapped in the apartment. The Sloth death isn't exactly cleargenerally we're supposed to assume that deaths to the victims are supposed to be a sort of'poetic' justice and a part of John Doe's larger spectacle and how each represents their respective sin. Why do some of the SWAT guys call Mills and Somerset "Dicks"? Styling contours by colour and by line thickness in QGIS. Why would someone even make something like that? Se7en. "And Iwas like, 'How did youknow it was me? He should represent slothness (even this sin as a description isn't exactly clear)whatever that means. Finite abelian groups with fewer automorphisms than a subgroup. With regards to being taught a lesson, I dont think any of Does crimes are justifiable. At one point in the film, there is a close-up shot of a newspaper that is detailing the horrific crimes that John Doe has been committing. Where would one even get an apparatus like that. However, the film studio was initially very strongly against this plot twist, as they thought it was far too dark for mainstream audiences to enjoy. So the serial killer starts killing the sinners by the way they perform their sins. call ambulance, live, but wind up disfigured; Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. McGinleyremembers acting shocked and jumping away, as California "basically ejects himself" to escape the near-dead victim, a scene which Fincher shot repeatedly. In the Philokalia, the word dejection is used instead of sloth, for the person who falls into dejection will lose interest in life. Yes, but all of the other victims had aspects of their life that made the punishment poetic. Along the way, John defends his actions by saying that he was chosen to turn each sin against the sinner. Edit, John Doe mentions to Mills and Somerset that Tracy begged him for her life and for the life of the unborn child inside her. Related:Every Unmade David Fincher Movie (& Why They Didn't Happen). That guy was way too fucking thin to be alive. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I was thinking the same thing how did she swallow all those pills with no water? Warner Home Video. With Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey, and Gwyneth Paltrow rounding out the film's central cast, David Fincher'sSe7en serves as a lasting example of achieving a tightly-packed modern noir thriller. This suggests that John Doe already selected Victor and began planning his entire work well before he captured him. He's taken to a local hospital with a chewed up tongue, vegetated brain, disintegrated and rotted skeletal body but we don't hear about him finally dying in the movie. Which is the one he made. Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins in Christian moral tradition, particularly within Catholicism, that refers to laziness. ", McGinley calls the finalscene "plain horrifying." Then I too thought oooohh she must of used the blood rushing out of her nose. John Doe doesnt seem to have much characterization, other than his signature criminal pathology. Change). Edit, John Doe leads Mills and Somerset out into the middle of nowhere, assuring them that they will be impressed by what they find. Is there a single-word adjective for "having exceptionally strong moral principles"? The tubes are an IV line carrying nutrients, fluids, and whatever drugs John Doe was using to keep the victim alive and placid for the year he was trapped in the apartment. I'm just glad the film dedicated so little time to that one. Keep in mind, Mills asks "He ate until he burst?" To me, the motivations of John Doe never made sense. Sure, its an entertaining and interesting serial killer movie but I dont see how its a masterpiece. So Im guessing he picked her cuz she thought she was so pretty. His audition was simple for the role of Theodore Victor Allen, a pedophile anddrug dealer kept alive and torturedfor a year by serial killer John Doe (Kevin Spacey). It was also revealed that he had chewed off his own tongue 'long ago' in an attempt at suicide. For lust, he had another person kill a prostitute. To be honest though, I stumbled on this blog looking for more theories about the research into the victims deterioration. So then I put myself in the shoes of the writer of the story. What are the seven deadly sins? The Megatherium was one of the largest ground mammals ever to have existed. (LogOut/ Love this movie a tonne. And boy, do his ideas for murder get creative and ugly. Hello, well technically the term sloth as a sin, encompasses not only laziness, but idling and wasting your life away, without doing anything substantial. "It was so visually arrestingthat itjust looked fake," McGinley recalls. rev2023.3.3.43278. Se7en's finale sees the sins of wrath and envy ultimately committed by Mills and Doe. What strange movie questions bother you? Sloth is one of the seven capital sins in Catholic teachings. I definitely agree, to me that was the worst murder (but maybe that's because I'm a girl so just thinking about it makes me all freaked out). Morgan Freeman's Somerset delivers the short but meaningful line:"Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' Edit, The "Gluttony" victim (Bob Mack) was an unnamed obese man who was forced to eat until his stomach bursts, killing him. He didnt directly kill him by imposing sloth upon him, he forced him to live the sloth lifestyle for ages and then he died. The "Envy" victim is the story's criminal, John Doe (Kevin Spacey). User Ratings The manipulator had placed an IV in Victor's arm to provide him with just enough . Never thought of it like that. I asked myself If I was writing the book, what occupation or personal day choose to represent sloth? From what I gather in popular culture, it works in a fairly simple manner: a few people show up, pay you a large amount of money, and then leave. Sloth is defined as spiritual or emotional apathy, neglecting what God has spoken, and being physically and emotionally inactive. She probably swallowed the pills and chased them down with her own blood. SE7EN in: Sins Sloth (Victim) Edit Theodore "Victor" Allen was a drug dealer, pedophile and one of John Doe's victims. Press J to jump to the feed. I think it works so well because, as you observe, theyre archetypes even the city is just the city, archetypal and anonymous. After this, Mills and Somerset are hot on the trail of Se7en's killer, and John Doeaccelerates his plans. A woman makes the choice to take her own life rather than abandon her vanity. As for lust, it would make more sense to clients prostitute to be victim vs prostitute who may be working not due to her own lust. I didnt proofread it before I sent it. Of course, given the films attitude towards life in a big city, its entirely possible that the lack of anybody noticing was meant to refer more to the city than the victim in question. The gluttony victim wasnt given a choice or opportunity like the pride victim, he was simply murdered in a horrific way. You can read about the filming locations here.The location is more of a conglomeration of cities. There are also the rare "Seven" star sightings. Religious views concerning the need for one to work to support society and further God's plan and work also suggest that, through inactivity, one invites the desire to sin. Edit, It was Tracy's severed head. However, with one big exception towards the end of the film, Doe doesnt appear to force the sin he punishes on to the victim in the first place he just exacts a sort of poetic justice. As a rule, looking at the majority of the victims, the sin is major part of their lifestyle before they meet John Doe. 2023 USA TODAY, a division of Gannett Satellite Information Network, LLC. I think I was pretty cool," he says. Seven - Sloth Scene os99 213 subscribers 1.1M views 14 years ago This is the discovery of the Sloth victim in the 1995 masterpiece Seven (or Se7en). I agree, maybe it points to that john doe isnt really some servant of god and on gods mission like he leads you to believe in the cop car ride but rather has his own severe mental problems and really is just forcing stuff, like the sloth, instead of being on some sort of divine mission. Though he's not killed like Doe's other victims, Mills is still a victim because of the long-term psychological effects of the ordeal. I think it was the choice itself that marked her sin as pride. I see you choose to ignore the existence of Alien 3 ;), Supposedly, when the movie company sent Fincher the draft for 7, they sent him the wrong one. With John Doe in custody, Mills and Somerset agree to be led to the final two victims, only for Doe to reveal himself as the first and Mills as the second. It's said that the Gluttony victim's stomach "burst" but, when he's found, his abdomen clearly isn't open and none of his internal organs seem to be hanging out. I dont know. I dont think thats quite it. It isnt exactly meeting deadlines or pushing paper. Did Brendan cripple Marcos Santos on purpose? It works on a superficial level, but the more I think about it, the less it makes sense, and the more I want to discover a way for it to make sense. Would Mills have gone to prison for shooting and killing John Doe? Well just like in the real world in which the prop was made, the killer could had said it was for a movie. Doe mutilates Slade's face, then gives her the option of calling for help and living with her disfigurement or ending her own life with an overdose of sleeping pills. Following this, Doe moves on to pride, the fifth sin, and his next victim is a model named Rachel Slade. Victor was attacked and kidnapped by John Doe, who later strapped him to a bed and inflicted countless injuries on him, even severing his hand. Five-Second Foreshadowing comes into play if you notice his Adam's apple jutting up and down slightly before he coughs. Falling into his desires of raping children is a form of mental sloth. I thought the exact same thing after I rewatched it; I came across your article because I was so bothered trying to make full sense of it that I had to Google it. Theodore Victor Allen grew up with abusive parents, and as a result of this, suffered a a variety of mental illnesses later on in life. @Yasskier you have a gross misunderstanding of what my sentence means. The actor laid on the cot in the dreary setand thoroughly corpsed out without breathing. Niall is also a certified boxing coach, which goes hand-in-hand with his encyclopedic knowledge of the Rocky franchise, and considers himself something of an expert on Batman. But did fans notice these cool, hidden details? After Mills and Somerset discover the "sloth" victim they're accosted in a stairwell by a photographer. Both Pitt and Freeman do a great job lending their movie personas to their roles, but these roles are fairly conventional rookie and soon-to-be-retiring veteran. Se7en's "what's in the box?" And apparently Spacey was pleased with the decision since it meant he didn't have to do any press for the film. John Doe's seven deadly sin murders prove this, as those guilty are punished accordingly - drawing a parallel with Dante'Alighieri's "Divine Comedy", which in itself heavily inspired Milton's "Paradise Lost". Easy money. I dunno dude. YMMV /. In an unnamed American metropolis where the crime rate is high and it is . I rewatched Se7en the other night and specifically went searching the internet for the reason why a man who is FORCED to stay in bed by his captor would be considered lazy. As the car drives away, Somerset says in a voiceover, "Ernest Hemingway once wrote, 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for.' But I even scared myself.". Who was originally considered for the role of John Doe? Se7en is a creative and bold film with an ending so shocking that it still hasn't lost its luster. After all, hes the kind of person who can disappear for a year without anybody missing him enough to check his last known address. Or is there like a DIY Instruction manual? I think Saw affords the illusion of the possibility of escape, but not the reality of it. Read our extensive list of rules for more information on other types of posts like fan-art and self-promotion, or message the moderators if you have any questions. I love those kinds of details in films. The FAQ items below may give away important plot points. Throughout the film, Mills is considered Somerset's successor, and Doe's targeting of the young detective is seemingly a way of forcing Somerset to take stock of himself. Are used voice text on my previous comment. Edit, They are the most deadly vices, according to Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century. Spaceys monologue sells the whole film and almost reads like a letter of intent to the viewer as to why the movie is being presented in a dark, disturbing fashion. Eventually, John announces that they have reached the spot, and the car pulls over near some high-tension electrical wires. Plus the salaries of actors, directors, producers, film crew etc.. plus props, makeup, and so on. AHhhooowww don't get me started with that one. i feel my natural reaction if i was a cop would have been to shoot that guy like he was a zombie that came back to life. It literally makes them experience time slowed down. But in real life, John Hinckley Jr. shot (but didn't kill) President Ronald Reagan and said that he did it because of his obsession with Jodie Foster. Think about R. Lee Ermeys line in the film about Victor being raised a strict Southern Baptist but eschewing it in favor of dealing drugs (neither a difficult or virtuous job) and being a paedophile (real relationships take work and commitment, overpowering a minor with rape is neither difficult nor committed). Edit, Awards Except envy, John Doe himself. All of the other victims ( as stated ) occupations or actions clearly reflected their respective sin. This is, literally, the exact same issue I had with the movie. But good luck convincing him of that. However, in the murder of the prostitute, Doe makes her client complicit here theres no such element to proceedings. He was purposely bled to death by being forced at gunpoint to sacrifice a pound of his own flesh from his lower abdomen. The lawyer is greedy, the fat man over-eats, the prostitute makes a living off sex. And with each victim discovered, we are allowed only the aftermath. In most cases, its a fairly obvious example of that sin. I loved it, but I have no idea why sloth wasnt as self explanatory as the other murders. Scrolled and searched for comments about the effects of hardcore drugs in relation to Sevens sloth and I wasnt fucking disappointed. I agree with the second part." Or he could had just made it himself. | Mills killing John Doe is more significant than simply being the seventh murder and the representation of wrath. Mills is technically not punished by death for his sin, but he is obviously left a broken man (which is probably the life he is "allowed to live", to which John Doe was referring in the car). Victor was discovered by police exactly a year after his kidnapping, after John Doe used his hand while killing Greed. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. Was it long-term planning, or did he choose them "on the spot". After leading Mills and Somerset to a remote location, a box is delivered for Mills. Wrath/rage is inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger. You can expect five more of these." William Somerset. That scene was so horrific and memorable, I never even thought of a criticism of the scene. However, the film overtly references the box's contents, making it clear exactly what was in the box. Se7en's story centers on Detectives Somerset (Morgan Freeman) and Mills (Brad Pitt) as they hunt for a serial killer at large in an unnamed city in the days leading up to Somerset's planned retirement. The one they wanted him to make was a water down cop drama (I think.). If your an attractive person, and offered a career to Modelwho wouldnt be tempted to take advantage of that opportunity? a.) Not only did he succeed in manipulating Mills, but he also shocked Somerset out of his own apathy, forcing the older detective to reevaluate his choice to retire. The writer of the film did live in New York at the time that he was writing it, though. But thatwas me. 10 must-see new movies to see while stuck at home, from 'Mulan' to 'Rebecca', All the best movies we saw at New York Film Festival, Your California Privacy Rights/Privacy Policy. Very fair point, certainly on dealing drugs. His sins werent overtly passive (like our modern view of sloth) but they were easy choices to make that avoided the overt difficulty of virtue. Unless you accept the well-argued comment above about sloth being mroe spiritual than literal. Thanks Casper. I guess because the chick was some Supermodel or actress or whatever she was guilty of pride? But to enrage him, he needed to hurt him really bad. Director Leigh Whannell was so pleased with MacKay's villainous auditionfor 2015's "Insidious: Chapter 3" that he complimented the workbysaying, "Youreminded me of that guy in 'Seven,' " MacKay recalls. It's pretty much impossible to see his face unless you pause the movie at just the right moment, but it is John Doe wearing what looks like a wig and a pair of glasses. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. man dies of shock after coming out of some kind of chemically induced coma that has kept him immobilised in bed for exactly one year. (LogOut/ Theodore Victor Allen was a drug dealer, pedophile and one of John Does victims. Are we to surmise he was made a heroin addict then experience withdrawal? Still alive to win titles are Berks Catholic's . Edit. Only when doe mutilates her face she chose to end her life with pills, that is debatable that it is shame vs pride, lost of identity. I think Doe chose Victor, a pederast and drug dealer as a victim because honest work is hard to do and requirse a lot of effort. And when Mills is throwing out suggestions as to what reasons serial killers often give to excuse their crimes he suggests both "Jodie Foster told me to do it" and "my dog told me to do it. Either the shock from the trauma or internal bleeding killed the man. The Killer Is David Fincher's Best Chance To Make Another Se7en, SpongeBob SquarePants' Super Dark Se7en Easter Egg Explained, Every Unmade David Fincher Movie (& Why They Didn't Happen), Every David Fincher & Brad Pitt Movie, Ranked Worst To Best. In short; Tracy told John Doe she was pregnant. "And David Fincher told me, 'You look horrific, it's great.' Thanks Sen. Its not a bad point, but it still seems a bit more of a reach than the other sins. But I guess the writer couldnt use a gambler because that could also be connected with greed. Why does the age of the film mean it will have plot holes? The greed guy was fat. Seven (stylized as Se7en) is a 1995 American neo-noir psychological crime thriller film, directed by David Fincher and starring Morgan Freeman and Brad Pitt as homicide detectives William Somerset and David Mills. Here's Se7en's ending explained in detail. Transported to the appropriately dank Los Angeles location setin full makeup, MacKay recalls Freeman spotting him and saying,"You don't look so good. The victim here is a drug-dealing pederast who John Doe tied up and doped up in his bed for a year, feeding and maintaining (and sanitizing and bandaging) him, just enough to keep him alive to the point where his poor victims brain turned to mush. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. In my view I think the drug dealer lived nasty, didnt hardly bathe but they just didnt go into that enough. So he planned to use the wife of whatever detective it will be. He said he would do it, but ONLY if it was the draft he read. Ive never been enamored by Se7en. Pitt and . I think pride was the choice made after the disfigurement: Just based on the appearance and overall vibe of the movie, most of the audience members have typically assumed that the film is set in New York City. Sloth Crime Scene. The goal of /r/Movies is to provide an inclusive place for discussions and news about films with major releases. When youre smuggling drugs and abusing children (like the guy in the movie was), youre showing spiritual apathy. This is just one of those minor little questions that occurs to me on watching a film like this. Although it could be argued that drug dealer could induce sloth (laziness or idleness) to his clients (assuming they bought downers and pot versus speed etc) or that the victims lack of employment (leads him to sin of dealing drugs and molestation), the victim is not a strong depiction of sloth (someone smoking pot to extreme or other example of extreme idleness would be). How did John Doe select his victims? The year is 9,000 B.C. This serves as the film's big twist - that Tracy is dead and Mills was always intended to be the final part of Doe's plan - with Mills' sudden comprehension of the situation enough to push him to murder Doe and embody the sin of wrath. However, the role ultimately went to Kevin Spacey. The movie was filmed in LA I believe. There are also Seven Holy Virtues which directly contradict each of the Sins. Much like sloth in this film, you need to get out more. In case the title of the film and the entire plot didn't get the point across, the number seven has a lot of significance within the movie. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. I am royally freaked the fuck out right now, calming myself down like 'I'm okay.. The film's leading cast includes Brad Pitt, Morgan Freeman, Kevin Spacey and Gwyneth Paltrow. MacKay still receives healthy residual paymentsfor his "Seven" role and considers it a career highpoint. He dealt drugs, so he earned a living (even a criminal one). At that particular moment, the film is reaching its climatic and horrific end, and there is a single frame of Gwyneth Paltrow's face that appears on screen at the very second that begins the seven-minute countdown to the end in a little homage to the brutal realization of what exactly is in the box. He was rendered immobile tied to a bed and left to rot in his own excriment with a feeding tube. David Fincher's 1995 thriller Se7en boasts one of the best shock endings in cinema, but it's far more than a simple twist and an iconic line. Doe meets up with Mills at the scene of the Sloth murder, and personally experiences Mills' violent temper which would make him the ideal candidate; later, Doe has the opportunity to kill Mills in the alley, but doesn't, probably to preserve him for becoming the seventh victim. Am I thinking about this too much? He was convicted with having sex with an underage girl, which would lead one to assume lust might be a more appropriate sin.